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All Things Being Equal
Posted on October 22nd, 2009 at 6:05pm
I posted quite a few tweets yesterday, primarily in exchange with a fan (Traci), regarding my position on gay marriage. For the record: I'm for it. If two consenting adults wish to marry, I see no reason that every state in the U.S. shouldn't allow them do so.
In one particular exchange, Traci tweeted: "All people are created equal. I just don't agree with gay marriage."
To which I responded, "So all people then are not created equal?"
This in turn prompted an email from another fan (Chris), who added an interesting insight to the mix. He wrote (in part):
The fact is that all people are born unequal in every meaningful way that equality can be supplied. All people are born unique (even identical twins), but some have more opportunities than others, some are smarter than others, some are born with trivial disadvantages of skin pigmentation, some will be fat, some skinny, some tall, some short, etc.
The idea of equality is an important one, but this is a legal concept: regardless of the situation of your birth or your development, in order to have a fair and orderly society, each individual should be beholden to the same standards. In the US system, that means rights as defined by law. While there are problems with the way the US applies these laws, in theory, each person should be granted the same rights and have the same liabilities regardless of their race, sex, sexual preference, creed, religion, etc.
That's exactly what I meant when I tweeted about all people being equal: not that we're a species of replicants, but that everyone should receive equal rights and protection under the law - as, indeed, the founding fathers of the U.S. spelled out in the Declaration of Independence. In fact, the only issue I have with Chris' statement is his reference to "sexual preference." Being gay isn't a "preference," or a "lifestyle," it's a biological fact, just as heterosexuality is.
I do understand - and respect - that many of those who oppose gay marriage do so based on their religious beliefs. But I object to those who would impose those beliefs on what is, ultimately, a civil matter. No marriage ceremony in the U.S., whether religious or civil in nature, is valid without a license. And those licenses are issued by the state, not by a church.
Many, many weddings do take place as strictly civil services with no religious component or officiant. My writing/producing partner Charlton Pettus is an atheist, and has a license to officiate marriages. My manager Arlene and her husband were married by a judge. The bottom line is that you don't need any religion's blessing to be legally married in this country.
Having said that: if a given church doesn't want to sanction gay marriage, that's fine by me. As the U.S. also enjoys freedom of religion, no law should force a church to perform marriages that go against its beliefs.
Just don't tell consenting adults who don't share those beliefs that they cannot wed and enjoy the attendant legal protections and benefits of marriage.
As always, I welcome your comments in response, asking only that you treat others' opinions with the same respect you'd like your own to be given.
Peace and love for all,
Papa S.
Comments
Posted by webwezal on Sunday, January 24, 2010 - 19:42.
I call people dude, sometimes... my bad. not really pissed. just as I stated... that's all. it takes more than this to really piss me off.
All for freedom and for pleasure, nothing ever lasts forever...
webwezal13@yahoo.com
Posted by Carolyn on Sunday, January 24, 2010 - 19:37.
Traci posts:
"dude, I never said it was... tho, many of the damn comments are directed at me so yeah, I might say something... just like anyone else would...."
I am not a "dude", and if you had actually read my posts you would know that..........eh "DUDE?"
Hmmm...I kinda getting the idea that you are a bit pissed, eh?
Posted by webwezal on Sunday, January 24, 2010 - 19:27.
dude, I never said it was... tho, many of the damn comments are directed at me so yeah, I might say something... just like anyone else would....
All for freedom and for pleasure, nothing ever lasts forever...
webwezal13@yahoo.com
Posted by Carolyn on Sunday, January 24, 2010 - 19:13.
You know what, Traci and Artmonster?
This whole conversation is not about you and what you believe. This conversation is about other human beings that are being denied the same rights as you both enjoy right now.
You both can hold up your religous beliefs, and you both can clutch your bibles to your chests and you can both quote all of the scripture all you want to.
But none of that changes the fact that you are both denying your fellow humans the same comfort, and human rights that you both, RIGHT NOW, are enjoying. You both feel that you are somewhat better then others, because of your faith and the fact that you feel your faith is better then other's have. You both feel that gay marriage is wrong, do you not? If so, then you both ARE saying that YOUR union is better then a gay union.....you are saying that you two humans are BETTER and more deserving of comfort and human rights then those that aren't exactly like you are.
You know what? I think that each and every GLBT couple that is in bed tonight together, no matter what the gender or circumstances surrounding their union........I think that THOSE unions mean much, much more then yours does.
Does that sound harsh, unfeeling, and uncaring? GOOD, I hope it does. How dare you both think that YOUR joining together as a couple means ANTHING more then any other two people that love each other?
I have said it before, and I will say it again.
Your frigging arrogance and bigotry astounds me. I find it hard to believe that in 2010 there are still those who believe the way you do, ESPECIALLY you two. You both presume to be TFF fans......and if so......then I would imagine that you have listened to some of the words in their songs? Maybe not.
I'm not going to pray for you two, because I don't do that, but I will ask the Goddess to maybe help shed some light into your lives and show you that YOUR way is not the only way. I hope that She can show you that what you think are your "morals" might not apply to every other person on this Earth.
Honestly, you both have my pity. I have never felt as sorry for two people as I do for you.
Rest well..............
Carolyn
Posted by rise1931 on Sunday, January 24, 2010 - 19:08.
Suzanne: "Rise, I'm "concerned about the after-life" but I also have to realize that I have to live here too. I have a responsibility to myself and to other people to live what I believe."
You have always been a terrific example of what's possible! This seems like the responsible way to live with belief in a religion.
"I also realize the real vs. imagined difference, but it just struck me that the life and death situation like Haiti shows the difference."
Agreed, it does show the compassion people have within them when faced with devastation. It highlights their sameness in their vulnerability. It shows them that everyone is diminished by the loss of life and affected by the tragedies. "Ask not for whom the bell tolls,It tolls for thee"
Posted by webwezal on Sunday, January 24, 2010 - 19:04.
they may not be reading it.. and just not listening...- - - c'mon now.. yes, I read, I love as God does and listen too. I guess it doesn't matter at this point. got it. After-life is important but that is not what I think of right now... today is what matters as well and how God sees us overall.
All for freedom and for pleasure, nothing ever lasts forever...
webwezal13@yahoo.com
Posted by SuzanneOlden on Sunday, January 24, 2010 - 18:52.
"I'm guessing it is because some of those that believe the "book" are not really reading that book. I'm guessing it is because that they are kinda ignoring the fact that their God and Jesus loves ALL people." Actually they may be reading it, just not listening to it. My mom used to say that my dad suffered from selective hearing. I think it's the same thing.
Rise, I'm "concerned about the after-life" but I also have to realize that I have to live here too. I have a responsibility to myself and to other people to live what I believe. I also realize the real vs. imagined difference, but it just struck me that the life and death situation like Haiti shows the difference.
Hope for the hopeless, prayer, faith without anger. We can change the world...
Suzanne Olden
Posted by rise1931 on Sunday, January 24, 2010 - 18:42.
"Survival, certainly. Empathy, definitely. Manners in the midst of chaos, amazing!"
Yes, Suzanne, but this is real survival versus imagined survival. All of the Haitian people have a shared experience which has greatly equalized them.
Imagined survival is something entirely different.
Posted by rise1931 on Sunday, January 24, 2010 - 18:36.
" Maybe they are more concerned about the after-life then they are on life on this Earth right now."
I read this and I felt a chill. Scary Carolyn, but probably true for a LOT of people.
Posted by Carolyn on Sunday, January 24, 2010 - 18:24.
Rise posts:
"Why is it that gay people and so many others are cast out to the fringe of society and not accepted? Why is it that humans don't feel an instant immediate connection with all other humans?"
I'm guessing it is because some of those that believe the "book" are not really reading that book. I'm guessing it is because that they are kinda ignoring the fact that their God and Jesus loves ALL people. It is called (as Curt so nicely put it) cherry-picking. It's like, "well, this is good for me, but not allowed for you".
You ask:
" Why is it that humans don't feel an instant immediate connection with all other humans?"
Because they are selfish, self-serving, and don't really care about other humans. Maybe they are more concerned about the after-life then they are on life on this Earth right now.
Posted by SuzanneOlden on Sunday, January 24, 2010 - 18:20.
And yet Rise, I was watching the news a few nights back and saw people lined up to get water in Haiti...and the children were very politely saying "thank you" as they received their bottle water. Survival, certainly. Empathy, definitely. Manners in the midst of chaos, amazing!
Hope for the hopeless, prayer, faith without anger. We can change the world...
Suzanne Olden
Posted by webwezal on Sunday, January 24, 2010 - 18:19.
I have said that my faith is not the only faith or way to see God... Some choose to believe in God and some do not. We all have a different set of morals we follow. My set is under my faith in God and what little family vaules I learned from my parents. As where someone else may not care for any standard and just want to be free of any law or morals. How they come together in the laws are different. Ethics can set the standards in laws whether, we are for or against a law.
All for freedom and for pleasure, nothing ever lasts forever...
webwezal13@yahoo.com
Posted by rise1931 on Sunday, January 24, 2010 - 18:11.
If I had a question when I joined this thread it had to do with connectedness. Why is it that gay people and so many others are cast out to the fringe of society and not accepted? Why is it that humans don't feel an instant immediate connection with all other humans?
People like Artmonster and Webwezal are functioning like primitive man and falling back on clan/tribe protection instincts. We know they are no longer fighting the beasts that their primitive ancestors fought, and yet... They believe that they are.
Empathy need not apply where survival is in question.
Posted by Carolyn on Sunday, January 24, 2010 - 18:06.
Traci posted:
"I have never said my belief is the right way and only belief.. well, hell I'm a sheep now, thx. It doesn't matter anyway... You have made up what you only want to think of me... so be it."
So you are saying that your belief is not the "right way and only belief"?
I am not making anything up. I didn't dream about all of the words you have posted here, you posted them, not me. I didn't make any of this up.
Posted by SuzanneOlden on Sunday, January 24, 2010 - 18:05.
I concur on the football talk...I deleted a comment before about it. It is best in the other thread. I have my thoughts on why Art started it here...those I'll keep to myself.
Lots of people lurk and I'm sure take away lots of things. I'm sure sometimes they're confused, because sometimes I know I am. Landru has a point, as I said before, but Carolyn, I think I keep answering because I agree that getting people to think instead of react is a good thing.
Hope for the hopeless, prayer, faith without anger. We can change the world...
Suzanne Olden
Posted by webwezal on Sunday, January 24, 2010 - 17:58.
I have never said my belief is the right way and only belief.. well, hell I'm a sheep now, thx. It doesn't matter anyway... You have made up what you only want to think of me... so be it.
All for freedom and for pleasure, nothing ever lasts forever...
webwezal13@yahoo.com
Posted by Carolyn on Sunday, January 24, 2010 - 17:56.
Maybe this football talk might fit better into the "Have Your Say" blog. Just saying.
Distraction is irritating.
Posted by artmonster1204 on Sunday, January 24, 2010 - 17:53.
To Allison: That's right Allison. MANNING!!!! AND THE COLTS! Back to Miami for Super Bowl 40......something. To many roman numerals
Posted by Carolyn on Sunday, January 24, 2010 - 17:37.
Landru posts:
"Carolyn & SuzanneOlden.. if you respond, he wins. Your answers are correct. So obviously correct that even you must see that he doesn't really care about the answer itself. The fact that you answered at all recouped his costs and profited his ego."
He does not "win" if we post. This is not a win/lose thing. He thinks he is right, and he is the one that will have to live with himself......knowing that while he is comfortable and happy with his chosen spouse, that he is denying others from doing the same thing. He isn't winning anything, he just thinks he is. Just like everytime he posts some scripture and thinks that he has scored a point or two, but then ignores posts that he does not feel like responding to. And yes, you are right when you say that he really doesn't care, that is true. He only cares about HIS way, and he totally throws out any opinions that differ from his "book". His costs are nothing except maybe what he pays for his Internet connection. His ego...on the other hand.........well maybe his ego is being profited........EXCEPT.......that not one person who has posted here has been swayed by his words. Sure, there are lurkers here.....people that read these posts and do not respond, but I doubt that anyone is reading the words in the blog and saying to themselves, "Artmonster is RIGHT and EVERYONE else is wrong.......I should get my ass to a church and right after that I'm going to Barnes and Noble to buy a bible because THAT is the ONLY WAY because Artmonster says it is."
Landru you say:
"webwezal and artmonster know their faith based morality is arbitrary, they know it wouldn't hold water in a Muslim nation, or on Mars, but they just assert that it does, and people respond, and they're efforts are validated."
Yes, they think they know what they are doing, but their efforts are not being validated.........they just think they are. On the contrary.......all Artmonster and Traci have done in this conversation is reinforce my belief that Christians like them are doing what some Christians have done time and time again........trying to enforce their beliefs..and impose them upon other people....no matter what year it is. They cannot help it, it is their job, what they are commanded to do. People like Artmonster and the like, think they have no choice. They simply are doing what they think is demanded of them. They are comfortable being sheep, they have no desire to be a wolf, or to be anything other then a sheep. I guess if a person doesn't know any better, being a follower is just fine with them. I guess if that works for them, then why would we hope that logic and reason would ever enter into their mindset? Logic and reason has no place in their world..........not as long as they have that book that tells them how to live their lives........and how every other person on this Earth should live theirs.
Honestly, I am not participating in the conversation because I think that Artmonster or Traci will ever let go of their 2000 year old book and beliefs....I know they won't. But if even one person who is lurking reads this thread and goes to the voting booth and thinks.........."you know....why can I have the right to marry who I want to, but my gay neighbor doesn't?".......and that lurker votes for gay rights, then it is worth it to me.
Posted by webwezal on Sunday, January 24, 2010 - 17:19.
Funny Suzanne... it's hard to believe the last time I saw the Colts in the Super Bowl, I was in Khandahar, Afghanistan. WOW!! That is just crazy :-)
All for freedom and for pleasure, nothing ever lasts forever...
webwezal13@yahoo.com
Posted by SuzanneOlden on Sunday, January 24, 2010 - 17:09.
Allison, don't make me comment.... (in my best mom tone, of course)
Hope for the hopeless, prayer, faith without anger. We can change the world...
Suzanne Olden
Posted by Allison on Sunday, January 24, 2010 - 17:00.
MANNING!!! :D
Posted by SuzanneOlden on Sunday, January 24, 2010 - 16:30.
(edited)
Hope for the hopeless, prayer, faith without anger. We can change the world...
Suzanne Olden
Posted by artmonster1204 on Sunday, January 24, 2010 - 16:25.
Wooooo Hoooo! Colts are going to the Super Bowl! Knuckle bumps for everyone!
Posted by webwezal on Sunday, January 24, 2010 - 16:22.
Interesting on what has come up.... I remember this from Ani... "No, there is a profound difference. Some people require hard, repeatable proof if told things exist which they cannot directly experience through the use of their own senses. Others believe with little or no proof—that’s faith."
You are right, I thought of this because this is where some are not understanding why faith is so important in a Christian's life and how that faith drives the morals of a Christian life. I believe, we are a body of spirits. I also believe we have spirits or a supernatural world all around us. I think we can be pulled to a spirit in one direction or other. Some may choose to not see God's spirit and some may see no spirit or another kind altogether. And then there are spirits that we don't want to have anything to do with... Many people may not like the evil spirits as where some may want to invoke the evil spirits or supernatural... Facts are very important in science, laws, medicine and so on. However, morals/ethics can help keep the facts straight. Or, some may want to ignore what is the right thing to do or report, it happens. It can be a personal belief to always report what is right no matter the out come. How is this much different in a Christians life??... It's not. We were talking about the conflict some may have when it comes to doing or reporting the right thing or what is the right way to believe in class.
Some could see faith as an arbitrary act, anyone can have it or not. Faith is not a list of facts but it does help fuel the belief in God and what is right and wrong in the eyes of God. We are to treat people with dignity. We are to help our fellow man and not condemn the person. I can have a moral standard that is not easily waved. How or when do we stop and say that we Christians no longer need to use our faith as right and wrong? I can readily say, I can't see gay marriage not happening. I know it does. In a Christian's faith it may always be a moral issue. How is that any different than any other moral issue?? It's not. We are to engage in ideas, I really did not know much about a progressives or have spent as much time talking about some of these topics as those here, who have talked on some of these very issues a few yrs ago, on this site and others.
I find myself, kind of like a young Christian at times. Wants to drink in some information and then not understanding a moral point of view other than God. A lot of this information is new for my life in the way of having to really try to deal with the political side of things. Especially in this manner. A young Christian is not much different than a person stepping out in the the world for the first time. You both have questions and fuss in how to make things work. I say I'm kind of a young Christian because I do believe in God but I have been in the military too, for I had other things on my mind. So, I guess that is how I started my journey in trying to understand a few things. My hubby and I really do not agree on many, many things politically. And yes on how we can come across in addressing our views to others at times. No worries, tho, we just have a different way of seeing things sometimes. Well, who doesn't?? I have asked questions because I really needed to know but yet some wish to see my comments as baiting or trolling. I have not had anyone tell me one thing and then say it's the only way to see it. I have lived the life and that has guided my morals and views.
I do have many things I'm sifting out politically. But I'm willing to get it in time. I do want to know about where the real democrats and republicans are these days. Does the parties have to regroup and do better than they have in the past? How did the progressives come about?? I'm not asking out of a conservatives view. I'm asking because I'm really curious. Glenn Beck did a show the other day about progressives but I have not watched it. I have gained a lot from here.
All for freedom and for pleasure, nothing ever lasts forever...
webwezal13@yahoo.com
Posted by SuzanneOlden on Sunday, January 24, 2010 - 16:01.
Hmmm, good point, Landru, taking the bait does do that...
Hope for the hopeless, prayer, faith without anger. We can change the world...
Suzanne Olden
Posted by Landru on Sunday, January 24, 2010 - 15:52.
Carolyn & SuzanneOlden.. if you respond, he wins. Your answers are correct. So obviously correct that even you must see that he doesn't really care about the answer itself. The fact that you answered at all recouped his costs and profited his ego.
Something else I've learned from this debate, (well I was aware of it beforehand, but had rarely seen it first hand) is how the act of fighting achieves its own ends regardless of who ultimately wins or loses. A losing boxer is still a boxer. Allegedly cigarrette companies know their product kills people and oil conglomerates know that their product polutes the atmosphere, so they'll fund some bunk study that contradicts popular sentiment, or they'll talk about how Americans should have the freedom to destory themselves or the environment, and eventually we will wise up - but in the mean time...they might carry on for years with business as usual, fanning flames that halt progress.
webwezal and artmonster know their faith based morality is arbitrary, they know it wouldn't hold water in a Muslim nation, or on Mars, but they just assert that it does, and people respond, and they're efforts are validated. The U.S. isn't a theocracy, and there is no point in conversing with someone who has deluded themselves into thinking it is. Though it's true that we're held hostage by Christian lawmakers who impose their morality upon us, it's a mistake to think we can talk them out of anything. Just look at the YouTube video someone posted of the wonderful, empassioned speech the New York lawmaker gave just before they struck down gay marriage. If that isn't proof enough that logic and reason mean nothing to people who have been stuck in the same religious thought donut since they were children, I don't know what is.
Posted by Carolyn on Sunday, January 24, 2010 - 15:44.
Suzanne posted:
"Art - you didn't answer my question, you danced right around it. By what authority do you judge my faith? Not God's..."Judge not lest ye be judged" is coming to mind. I know the answer - you have no authority to judge my faith or anyone elses, but if you admit that then your entire post about my supposed "weak faith" is just what it sounds like - a stinky pile of BS."
Of course he didn't answer your question, there have been many questions asked of him here that he has not answered. And I'm beginning to think that he is a dance instructor, since he seems to be so good at it. Simply put, Artmonster and his ilk judge others, they condemn those that do not fit into their mindset, he even has the nads to judge and question a fellow Christian for daring to think a little bit differently then he does. If you do not believe EXACTLY the way he does, then you are not as good of a Christian as he is........or so he thinks.
It's kinda like "it's my way or the highway". Which is so arrogant, self-serving, and egotistical, and sad.
Carolyn
Posted by Carolyn on Sunday, January 24, 2010 - 15:15.
Artmonster posts:
"Because I disagree with the general concensus on this site that gay marriage is permissable, because my opinion differs, am I somehow less of a person?"
You are not less of a person, but you think that those who don't believe the same way you do ARE. If you didn't think that they were less then you, you would allow them the same rights as you enjoy.
You say:
"If my arguments are so full of holes, then you should have had no trouble enlightening me and helping me to see the errors of my ways. As I see it, you just haven't presented an argument persuasive enough to convince me to correct my illogical mindset. Perhaps your counterpoints to my flawed way of thinking aren't nearly as rock solid as you would believe them to be."
A person can talk to a rock or a tree or a piece of concrete all they want. But those things will not be able to respond, at least not with any intelligence or logic. The words just bounce off of the rock or tree or piece of concrete..........they don't hear the words spoken to them.
You say:
"Unfortunately, this debate is a moral issue disguised as a legal issue."
Ummmmmm.......I'm pretty sure that there were many people in the past who thought that a white man who married a black woman was a "moral" issue, but those unions are now LEGAL AND MORAL, aren't they?
Carolyn
Recent Posts
| 1 Sep | psych airs tonight! |
| 3 Aug | twitter chat |
| 29 Jul | As promised......... |
| 28 Jul | Updates? I've Got 'Em. |
| 12 Jul | a few things |
As I wrote yesterday: at 2300+ comments, this conversation is going nowhere. Those who support gay marriage and those opposed to it have stated their cases many times over. It's all here to read in the comments for anyone who is interested. However, in the interest of all of us moving on to more productive topics, I'm closing further comments on this post.
Papa S.